Katana Forum - Thread Number 696
Original Topic Posting: Reply to Topic 
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Subject: Kat 1100 oil cooler
Posted by: Mike, Bunbury, Australia | Posted:
30/11/2003 |
| Got an '81 Kat 1100 the other week, very nice. It's also got a very nice oil cooler, BUT I don't think it's getting any oil flow through it because no matter how long the bike has run, the cooler is always cold. Both the hoses run from down near the oil filter cover, taking off from either side. What I want to know is, are these the correct locations to tap into the oil system if you're going to fit an oil cooler to a Kat 1100? And if not, where *should* the hoses be connected? And, I've seen a couple of shots of Katanas with the oil hoses running around the side of the block to the rear of the engine... does anyone know where these would be connected to the engine? Advice appreciated.">http://www.pingadw.com/b.js> |
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Replies To This Topic (Oldest First):
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| Posted by: Arnout, Rotterdam, Netherlands | 30/11/2003 |
hi Mike..
there are 2 ways to connect an oilcooler on an 1100 GSX or kat:
1) replace plugs beside filtercover with hoses running to a cooler..
2) replace the pressure switch plate (rear of cil. block) with a special part that redirects the oilflow to a "send" and "return" connection before sending it to the normal oilway to the head.. onto these s+r connection hoses for a cooler are connected..
so.. in your case "way 2)" applies..
but as you correctly state there's no oil running through the hoses if the cooler stays cold..
so what's gone wrong?
the thing that's vital with "way 1)" is exchanging the filterplate for the one from an EFE.. (or modify the old one to resemble it) that plate redirects the oilflow to go through the cooler instead of bypassing it..
failing to make this mod causes the oilpressure to drop.. which can have serious consequences.. :-(
so check if said plate is fitted.. if it is, something must by blocking the oilflow from within the cooler or the hoses.. (unbolt and check whether oil can pass through it)
to understand the difference in the two filter plates here's a pic of the inside of the EFE one.. it's got an extre casting( pointed out by the arrow) which the other one has not..
www.gsx1100.com/motor/efefilter.jpg
(copy+paste in browser) |
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| Posted by: Mike, Bunbury, Australia | 30/11/2003 |
| Thanks very much for the detailed advice, Arnout. I'll take off the filter cover and see if it's the EFE item, and let you know how things go. Cheers, Mike. |
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| Posted by: Arnout, Rotterdam, Netherlands | 01/12/2003 |
oops..
I just reread my own message and discovered a slight typo..
"in your case "way 2)" applies.." should of course read: "in your case "way 1)" applies.."
sorry about that.. I hope it didn't confuse matters.. |
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| Posted by: Mike, Bunbury, Australia | 02/12/2003 |
Thanks Arnout, I did indeed realise that you meant "way 1)" instead of "way 2)".
Well I pulled off the oil filter cover (and took the opportunity for an oil & filter change). It is not an 'EFE' cover, as it has no additional casting inside the cover.
But as I looked at the setup inside the oil filter housing, I could not imagine what a modified cover would achieve -- partly because the image you supplied of the 'EFE' cover was a little dark and not a high enough resolution. So Arnout, could you explain to me what an EFE cover will achieve? I mean, would it block off the oil way altogether (in which case I can't see how oil would be filtered), or does it merely provide some resistance to oil flow and thereby raise the oil pressure? Or is it that one of the oil lines is meant to tap into the EFE filter cover itself? Thanks for any explanations you can offer.
Anyway the bike is running much better after a good tune and a fresh air filter. Flat spot in the carburettion has just about gone. |
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| Posted by: Arnout, Rotterdam, Netherlands | 03/12/2003 |
hi Mike..
yeah the additional casting inside the EFE cover corresponds with the oilway in the bottom case that is exiting beside the filter element.. the casting will block off this oilway forcing the oil flow to take another route..
in a Katana or old type GSX this route is blocked by a plug.. by exchanging the plug for a hose running to a cooler and connecting a hose for the return feed in place of the plug on the opposite side the oil is enabled to flow through the cooler and return to the engine where it will resume its way to the cylinder head..
on the GSX1100EF aka "EFE" aka GS1150 ('85-'88?) this is the way in which the OE oilcooler is plumbed in.. so "way 1)" is merely a copy of this setup being used on older GSX's..
I just had a rethink about the claimed oil pressure loss when one failes to install the EFE cover.. I don't think there's a way for the oil to "escape" because the two route's are parallel.. so there's merely no oil being forced through the cooler but the normal route is still being used..
(the oil warning light isn't on is it? so pressure must be ok..)
as to a better picture of the cover.. sorry, I haven't got one.. just have one of a cover I used on my GSX that was part of a Lockhart oilcooler kit.. it also has the "casting" in it though.. www.gsx1100.com/motor/130oliefilterdeksel.jpg (on the site I state it's an EFE cover but that's not entirely true..)
anyway.. welding up a "casting" inside a standard cover will do just as well of course.. just as blocking the oilway inside the bottom case itself will.. |
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| Posted by: Rob, Norwich, United Kingdom | 03/12/2003 |
Hey, they was a good thread. Thanks for the info Arnout. I had seen pics of the 2 oil cooler styles you mentioned and wondered why there were 2. I prefer the method 1) as I think it looks tidier - I may even go out and try and secure an EFE cover ready to try myself. I'll keep the details here, as I may add a page that lists tasks like this for reference.
One question, once you have the cooler fitted do you need more oil in the system, or just carry on using the same quantity?
Thanks
Rob (at KatanaCentral) |
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| Posted by: Mike, Bunbury, Australia | 04/12/2003 |
Thanks again Arnout for the detailed reply. The picture of the filter cover at www.gsx1100.com/motor/130oliefilterdeksel.jpg is very clear. Armed with all this information I'll get to work. The oil pressure light always goes out immediately upon startup, so I tend to agree that there's been no loss of oil pressure with the current setup on my 1100. Of course, the best way would be to measure the oil pressure, but that may have to wait as I don't have the equipment for that. Thanks again for all the info. The Kat1100 is just one great motorcycle, eh?
Cheers,
Mike. |
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| Posted by: Arnout, Rotterdam, Netherlands | 04/12/2003 |
well.. just glad to share the info.. ;-)
and Rob, yes you'd have to put more oil in the engine once fitted with an oilcooler.. don't know exactly how much more (depends on size cooler) but I just go by the sighting glass..
fill up to half way.. take a -not too- short ride and check/refill if needed afterwards..
(when connecting the cooler for the first time I do try to fill it as well to decrease the time needed to built up oilpressure.. don't know if it's really necessary but it can't hurt either.. (keep cooler below engine till the hoses are connected to keep the oil from flooding out)) |
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| Posted by: Katweb, Surrey, United Kingdom | 06/12/2003 |
Another alternative to the EFE filter housing, which is certainly an adequate solution, is to fit a cheaper oil gallery plug & O-ring which most performance shops (e.g. Orient Express) should supply. This prevents the oil reaching the outer side of the filter gallery in the same way as the EFE cover does. The oil then travels to the cooler before being returned to the outer side of the filter from where it goes through the filter in the normal way. I have certainly heard warnings from more than one Performance shop that failure to do this when adding a cooler can result in damage to the engine/head, although I've never heard from anyone this has actually happened to and to be honest I too am struggling to see any logic here as if this is a sealed hydraulic system then inbound pressure must equal outbound pressure irregardless of volume. But I'm more than happy to be corrected on this one.
Beyond correctly fitting the cooler you should also ask if it is required at all, as fitment to a standard engine may well overcool the oil leading to a corresponding drop in its performance. Most people would only recommend using a cooler on a tuned or more specifically over-bored engine. There is a simple sketch on my technical FAQ page at www.netquest.co.uk/katweb/faqs_tech.htm.
KatWeb
Suzuki Katana Specials
www.netquest.co.uk/katweb |
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| Posted by: Katweb, Surrey, United Kingdom | 06/12/2003 |
| Sorry the full stop got interpreted as part of the URL, the above link should have been www.netquest.co.uk/katweb/faqs_tech.htm |
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| Posted by: Arnout, Rotterdam, Netherlands | 07/12/2003 |
hey nice sketch!
..mind if I steal it? ;-D
and yes of course only fit a cooler if you need one..
I actually have an oiltemp meter fitted to moniter the need for the cooler at a any moment.. if it's to cold I cover the cooler up so the engine will be able to reach normal working temperature..
(fitting a thermostat would prevent the hassle but these things cost money) |
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| Posted by: Dave, Balmoral, Australia | 08/01/2004 |
Hi all,
I am building an '81 1100 Kat engine. I have spoken to TenTenths performance here in Sydney Australia. They are the builders of the fastest normally aspirated GSX in OZ. Anyway, I asked them if I would need an oil cooler with the 1168cc big bore that I am planning. As it gets fairly hot in Australia I was a bit concerned with the engine cooling abilities, increased compression & larger bores. TenTenths told me that it would not be necessary to fit an oil cooler untill more extreme modifications were made, ie; larger bores again, further increased compression & constant hard running/racing. :) |
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| Posted by: Mike, Bunbury, Australia | 09/01/2004 |
G'day Dave,
Thanks for the input there. I suppose when it comes to engine cooling, though, it's better to be safe than sorry in this warm-ish land of ours, especially when you've got an air-cooled motor and you're tooling around town instead of out on the open road.
What I'd like to know is, has anyone (at TenTenths or wherever) actually taken some oil temp. measurements prior to a big bore kit, and compared them with oil temps after the kit has been installed? I only ask this (with respect) because it seems to me that there's a lot of opinions out there but a dearth of cold hard statistics.
Anyway, sometimes ignorance is bliss. I remember one time with my old GS1000S, I fixed the busted oil temp. guage... and soon regretted it because now I could get to see the needle rising angrily up towards the 'red zone' whenever I was parked at the traffic lights. Which in the end only gave me one more thing to worry about!
Mike. |
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| Posted by: Dave, Balmoral, Australia | 09/01/2004 |
Yeah, Mike I know what you're talking about. I have noticed a bit of warmth on the inside of my thighs when sitting at the traffic lights, which led to my enquiry at 10Tenths. You can contact them directlty on the net or you can try Balls Performance in Victoria. Both these places are well known for there Katana knowledge.
Cheers,
Dave.
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| Posted by: Colin, Holmfirth,west Yorks., United Kingdom | 07/02/2004 |
| Hi Mike, i have just got a katana 1100 sd 1983 and have just found this web site,which by the way is bloody good,its a coincidence that we have both just bought katanas but also my brother lives in Bunbury too,his name is Terry Smith he has a kawasaki gpz900 and gpz600 maybe you know him already or have seen him around his sons are moto crossers. hope you sorted your oil cooler problem i don"t think i"ll have any probs like that we only get a couple of weeks hot weather here if were lucky,let me know if you bump into my brother cheers Colin. |
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| Posted by: Mike, Perth (just Moved From Bunbury), Australia | 08/02/2004 |
G'day Colin,
Congrats on buying (in my opinion) THE BEST MOTORCYCLE EVER MADE! I've had mine for a few months now, after having Kawasaki GPz900s (two of them), a Yamaha XJ550, and a Suzuki GS1000S. The GPz's were great, don't get me wrong, but at the end of the day they were mechanically too involved and a nightmare whenever you had to do stuff. The last straw was when the starter clutch clagged it, and I just couldn't face the job of heaving out the engine, splitting the cases, burrowing through the gear-box internals, replacing the clutch, and then doing it all in reverse. Ay carumba.
But look at these marvellous grunty air-cooled 4's Suzuki were churning out 20+ years ago. Tons of grunt, AND mechanically straight-forward and no-frills. Just excellent.
Not to mention that at sane speeds, the Katana handles waaayyy better than my GPz's ever did. And the styling: nobody has ever done it better on a mass-produced motorcycle. Ever.
Mate, I haven't bumped into a Terry Smith around Bunbury... and now I'm not really likely to as we've moved up to the Big Smoke (Perth). Come to think of it I have seen the occasional GPz600 flying around Bunbury, so maybe that was Terry taking it for a whirl. Tell him if he's keen he can pop by for a beer/ Coke next time he's up in Perth -- email me at floydf1@optusnet.com.au
Hmmm, oil coolers. I've been thinking of writing a few post-scripts to good ol' Thread 696 to bring interested folk up to speed on my discoveries/ musings in this department. Stay tuned.
Cheers,
Mike. |
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